Rules question (line of sight and alike)

[method00]

Quick Question..
Just trying to determine how it is played.. (or meant to be played)

The 8th edition rules for line of sight state you do not have line of sight after the second rank. (regarding magic missles, this excepection is made by the "use the shooting rules" which in turn dictate any models in the second rank use the first rank's LOS)

That being established, the third ranks and beyond have thier line of sight obsured by the first two ranks. Does the opposite apply as well? can the models in the rear ranks be targeted/seen (with cannons, etc), even if they can't see out?

[Chris M.]

Yes. If you can see the unit... you can see the unit.... that is what true line of sight means. A cannon doesnt care if you can see it through the guy in front of it. It only cares that there is a big mass of guys over there and is gonna shoot it. Also if you cant see the first two ranks with the cannon but can see the third.. there are two reasons... one is a building and the unit is partially obscured, or you're on a hill and its so large that it obscures the front two ranks and you can see the second two/three.

[method00]

just so i follow you.. what you are saying is say for example i have a flank shot. as long as I can see the head/arm/leg/body of some dude in the middle of the regiment, i can target him? (cannon, in this instance) keep in mind this allows the ability to shoot with impunity..
I just want to get it right (as in not to cheat people..), before i go to a tournament next month...

[Chris M.]

Yes, and instead of counting the ranks from the front you count the files wide on a flank shot. Also remember its from models eye view not your view of the table. You're about 2.5' higher than the model so have a better vantage point.

[method00]

so basically, get down to the models level, and if the model can see any part of the enemy's person (body,arms,legs,head) you can pick that enemy as a target regardless if the enemy model is 5 or 50 ranks in....

does that sound about right?

[Chris M.]

The main rule book spells it out very clearly on page 10. and yes you are correct.

[method00]

Thanks for the clarity, does anyone play it differently?
Erik, is that how it will be played at brawler?

[Erik Lindley]

Yes, TLoS works like Chris is saying and will be played according to the BRB at the Bash.

You need to reference the cannon's rule in the BRB as well though (since you specifically mentioned your cannons)

Cannons require you to have LoS to the _spot_ you are choosing. That is very different from LoS to the model you want to hit. You have to be able to draw LoS to the spot you are guessing on the ground. It is not really how I would have chosen it to work, but that is how the rules are. It does balance out cannons in some ways though.

For instance: A cannon is seperated from a dragon by a low hill. The cannon can see half of the dragon's body, but not the ground in front of the dragon. You cannot choose a mark on the ground that would hit the dragon so it isn't a valid target.

That make sense Jerry? I don't have the book with me so I can't give you pages or qoutes, but that is the rule and unless it was faq'd and I am unaware, will be how it is played at BB :>

-Erik

[mattmcd31]

I think I disagree with your interpretation. The target can be above the ground. Here is what it says:

"Nominate a point within the war machines line of sight and that is not outside the cannon’s maximum range. Your target does not have to be an enemy model; it can be a point on a ground if you wish."

[mattmcd31]

So if you could see the spot (TLoS) on the ground 6" (Or whatever math you use for your bounce guess) in front of your intended target you would be fine.

[Chris M.]

Mar 7, 2011 14:16:42 GMT -5 mattmcd31 said:

I think I disagree with your interpretation. The target can be above the ground. Here is what it says:

"Nominate a point within the war machines line of sight and that is not outside the cannon’s maximum range. Your target does not have to be an enemy model; it can be a point on a ground if you wish."

No it cant be above the ground. The cannon ball is measured in a bounce. The text "if you wish" isn't referring to the ground but to the enemy model. The sentence is interpreted as " You don't have to target the model, the cannon can shoot short to compensate for bounce and the cannons tendency to overshoot the spot you want to strike. If you add in a height variable then issues arise with having a multi layered game board with sections of board 6" higher than the last to give a layered effect showing the height of fliers.

Talk about turning a simple game into a complex one.

A few paragraphs down it says " When you have chosen a target, place a small coin or counter in the correct position as a reminder of where the shot is intended to land."

I'll make you a deal... if you can place a coin mid air without using a flying base a tooth pick or any other object supporting it... and I mean anything... I would let you fire that cannonball mid air... You would have to have telekinesis in order to do this... and as no one does... that shot is landing on the ground. ;D

[Chris M.]

Mar 7, 2011 14:28:04 GMT -5 mattmcd31 said:

So if you could see the spot (TLoS) on the ground 6" (Or whatever math you use for your bounce guess) in front of your intended target you would be fine.

Yes

[mattmcd31]

So does that answer you initial question. The cannon doesn't even have to see the unit just the spot they are targeting in front of the unit

[walkstheweb]

Here is a question thats debated here on the island. What if all they can see of the unit over some rocks or something is the standard from a BSB or such?

[Chris M.]

Mar 8, 2011 12:05:53 GMT -5 walkstheweb said:

Here is a question thats debated here on the island. What if all they can see of the unit over some rocks or something is the standard from a BSB or such?

Nope LOS states that you cant use standards, weapons, wings, tails and stuff like that to target a unit when determining LOS.