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Post by powerposey on Feb 21, 2011 19:08:50 GMT -5
Wow that stuff looks great!
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Post by method00 on Feb 22, 2011 22:40:20 GMT -5
Erik, Hey man what's going on? A couple of us vets just looked at the players pack recently. Noticed for Comp, you have the hard lists playing the hard lists first 2 rounds, and the soft battling the soft. I think there is the potential for some serious mismatches with this set-up. for example; if we consider every player in the tournament exactly the same skill/general-wise. if all the players with the hard lists smash each other (I.E THEIR DIRECT COMPETITION) in the first 2 rounds, we can assume a few will get out unscathed with perfect records. now the same happens for the soft bracket. well what happens now, is the hard list guys have already decimated their toughest competition in the beginning, so they play against dudes with softer lists. and all things player wise being equal, the tough list will always win out. So aside from theme, there isn't any reason to take a soft list, if you want a chance to win the best general award (which coincidentally is the best chance to take home overall....) I know how much hard work is included, and what time and commitment you have already put forth, so i feel i would look unappreciative unless i offered some suggestions, rather than just concerns.. (and trust me, we KNOW you have been kicking butt to make this year the best ever!) My suggestion is if you still want to keep the limited comp brackets, and don't want to overhall the whole thing, then in addition to your set up for the first 2 rounds; you simply just award 10 tourny pts to players with a soft score, 6 for those in the medium bracket, and 0 for those in the hard. that way, those lists that no one enjoys (looks foward to) playing against have to face down each other, for the first 2 rounds, knowingly if they lose, they would have to make up a bucket load of points in the later rounds. (as a deterent.) Please don't think i am being too critical, I am without a doubt actively pushing this tourny in VA and NC, and the Brawler is still on the must attend list every year; it's just in my experience talking to some vets, and my experience collecting data for the US Ranking site for all the tournys nationwide (before i gave the website and data to Ranking HQ) that I see trends. But I am optimistic that regardless it will be a awesome time, but i am hoping for a little balance as well, to make it a tourny that can be the best it can possible be for all players (fluff bunnies to uber tourny player) Thoughts? Jerry
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Post by method00 on Feb 22, 2011 22:43:02 GMT -5
BTW my Empire is coming... and do we have a player list yet? see you there!!!
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mrpink
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Post by mrpink on Feb 22, 2011 23:36:42 GMT -5
I shall be coming down too and very much looking forward to this tournament, last year's was a blast.
I do, however, have the same concern as Jerry. The "comp" system of ranking players just doesn't look like it would work on paper. I can't see what it was meant to do. I mean, I take a "soft" army. Due to my tactical genius, I stomp my first two opponents and... I end up facing the hardest list that has come out on top after two rounds of natural selection between the hard lists.
Put another way, if you have a hard list, you have two rounds facing off against other hard lists ... and if you win both of those then round three you probably get paired off against someone from the lower brackets.
It feels like there's no advantage in bringing a "soft" list, indeed if you can make it through rounds 1 and 2 with a hard list you're "rewarded" with a high probability of hitting a soft list. It feels counter-productive, random pairing round one and then by battle points seems a lot more fair to the soft lists! The way it was arranged last time (with lower bracket lists scoring more) meant playing the first two rounds within our bracket was a lot more logical.
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Post by method00 on Feb 22, 2011 23:46:31 GMT -5
It feels counter-productive, random pairing round one and then by battle points seems a lot more fair to the soft listsMr Pink, even that wont help. random pairings might help the first round, BUT how would battle points be any more fair to the soft lists? They still get no reward for playing nice.. that means round 2 they could run into the grinder rather than round 3... Unless they score more points per victory, like last year......
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mrpink
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Post by mrpink on Feb 23, 2011 0:29:47 GMT -5
Right, there's no incentive then, but as it is, it feels like a disincentive. If you bring a soft list, yes you get an easier time of the first two rounds, but then chances are you get pitted round three against someone with similar win record to you in the harder brackets.
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Post by Erik Lindley on Feb 23, 2011 0:38:52 GMT -5
Hey Jerry and Mrpink, awesome to see you on the Brohammer site! First off, don't worry about hurting my feelings. :> I can appreciate good feedback and the kind that is carefully considered (like this one was) is the best kind! I hear ya', but let me submit a couple of points: -Comp doesn't have as much impact this year at the BB. It isn't supposed to. Play what you want (within reason) and enjoy a year with little comp restrictions. -The comp banding system is a "nod" to the soft list people. It greatly increases the chance that they will have at least 2 games with similar minded folks, notice I didn't say similar lists (although it obviously does that too). Simply put: the people who will bring a soft list can be classed as "people who bring soft lists" :> You know the type. It isn't me most of the time (I fall more in the medium category) and it isn't Jerry or Lance or Ben or Ian or lots of other folks I could name. We just don't generally swing that way right? Without the comp banding then it is possible that a "people who bring soft lists" will never once play a like minded person in 5 games. -I see what you are pointing out as a reward for the hard lists in game 3 and a kick in the pants to soft lists in game three, but here are a few things to think about: -Don't forget the medium armies! They smashed their opps also and now they have equal points (since no one gets bonuses or penalties based on comp) The difference between a med army and a hard list is in the eyes of the beholder (mine in this case) and could be miniscule in reality. -Say a softy does hit a hardnosed, fire-spitting list in the 3rd round? If they were going to win or make a serious run for the podium then they would have had to go through that army anyways, now or in the later rounds right? What is the difference when it happens? And lastly, while comp banding doesn't prevent a "bunny run" to the podium, it makes it much more unlikely imo. Just like "people who bring soft lists" are often like minded, so to are "people who tend to bring hard lists" like minded. Get those people together early on when I have some control over the chance part. We all know I have less and less control over matchups (to keep it fair)the higher the round number. Those are the reasons for the comp banding this year. Does that make sense? What you are saying isn't wrong, I just went a different direction. Haha besides, it is 8th ed now. It is like college basketball "the worst can beat the first!" We shall see.
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Post by Erik Lindley on Feb 23, 2011 9:26:05 GMT -5
So far these are the names I have as for sure telling me that they are planning on coming. There are about 15 others that I _think_ are coming but they have not registered yet or said "Erik, I am coming to BB this year" We had 38 players last year. We have slots for 50 players this year. There should be enough room for everyone! **Note** some of these people have paid already, I just didn't have that info when I made this graphic... so don't panic if you have paid already :> -Erik
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Post by method00 on Feb 23, 2011 13:31:52 GMT -5
you can add to that list the following
Ken stubbs Warriors of chaos Eoin Whelan Ogres Jason Conca Demons of chaos Travis Hill Beastmen
We're all members of kobra kai ;D
That said, I still don't know if you will be doing your band 3 players any favors. Provided that they will be get a couple of games against other soft players, their still should be more than one path to victory in overall, even if it means awarding them some bonus points. True, that to have a chance at the podium a soft list will need to play the grinders at some point, but in this format the players who take the hard list takers have all the advantages...
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Post by retroalias on Feb 23, 2011 20:33:44 GMT -5
Good discussion and many excellent points made. Ultimately in a comp free environment the hard lists will have the advantage. However, I think the comp banding is a pretty good idea. As Erik alluded to it potentially lumps like minded folks together.
At the end of the day we may find most of the lists falling in the medium category and all of this is a moot point.
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Post by crushweight4 on Feb 24, 2011 7:48:41 GMT -5
What up Erik-
Like the others I think the Bash is a great event and applaud your efforts to bring a Warhammer GT to this area where we all still struggle to really get an active fantasy community together-I do want to add my opinion however to the comp topic though. I think everyone in the feild would be well served if the event incentivized softer lists in some small way. I get the fact that soft lists will play soft lists for the first two games but it doesn't change the fact that if someone really wants to win this event your best bet is to jump on Warseer, make myself a point-and-click LD bomb Slaanesh daemon army or a double hydra Khainite DE list, and show up and smash faces. Not that there is anything wrong with that I guess-but knowing you and some of the other guys on the scene and the type of builds/armies we field why not reward guys who venture outside of that "most effective" build/unit combos that every army has? To put it another way-what really is the down side to in addition to your pairing system giving maybe 5 bonus points to the guys in the soft bracket and 7 bonus points to the medium bracket guys? It might give pause to our double A-bomb/double steam tank brethern out there and reward in a non tournament breaking fashion the guys that bring the more thematic, less optimized, or even non-traditional/more unique lists? Simply put the hard guys can still win the tournament-but they will have to offset a small initial point deficit to do so-as they should in my opinion. I think it is an easly way to level the playing feild with no real drawbacks that I can see.
At the end of the day though it is your event and I am good with whatever you guys decide. I look forward to getting up there and catching up with everybody and playing some Warhammer.
Jason
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mrpink
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Post by mrpink on Feb 24, 2011 12:24:19 GMT -5
Yeah, there are two things here: Firstly, in terms of grouping like-minded people together, that's fair enough. Sure, it works for the first two rounds ... but then you're going to end up mixing soft and hard lists in the third - the best of the soft lists is likely to be playing not just medium or hard lists but the best medium or hard list. Instead of mixing everyone together in the first round with random pairings and then like-minded people generally filtering out in the later rounds, we have filtering first and then the big mix-up. Secondly, I'm generally in favour of comp. It worked extremely well last year. If you're going to all the effort of scoring lists as low-med-high cheese levels you might as well add comp to them too. I've already seen stagnation in 8th ed lists - last GT I went to I played four (4) identical VC armies. Lord with helm of commandment and master of black arts hiding in a skeleton bunker, grave guard horde with BSB (and almost always regen banner), 2 ghoul hordes, vargulf. After that a little variation but always black coach, bats and wraiths in some combination. It felt like getting stuck in some horrible time warp where I played the same army again and again. Now this isn't make-or-break at all, I'm happy to come down with the rules as they are. Just saying that the stratification doesn't really do very much but if you added even a small comp bonus to the weaker lists it could encourage a diversity in lists and maybe we won't see every VC player with an identical list. It was interesting last year that most of the top players were taking armies designed to fit in the bottom tier for the extra battle points and there was a lot of variety in the armies as a result - which really enhanced the event. Jason, what do you mean Slaanesh Ld-bomb is point and click? That list takes skill to play, I'm telling you! Eoin.
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Post by crushweight4 on Feb 24, 2011 13:21:12 GMT -5
Yeah, there are two things here: Now this isn't make-or-break at all, I'm happy to come down with the rules as they are. Just saying that the stratification doesn't really do very much but if you added even a small comp bonus to the weaker lists it could encourage a diversity in lists and maybe we won't see every VC player with an identical list. It was interesting last year that most of the top players were taking armies designed to fit in the bottom tier for the extra battle points and there was a lot of variety in the armies as a result - which really enhanced the event. Jason, what do you mean Slaanesh Ld-bomb is point and click? That list takes skill to play, I'm telling you! Eoin. Agreed. Sorry dude-wasn't my intention to bust on your army-I wasn't even thinking about that. You know what I mean though-to your point above even a cursory glance on the forums show 5-6 subtle deviations on the same optimized lists.
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manzier
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I got my Backside Beat at Brawler Bash
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Post by manzier on Feb 24, 2011 18:02:10 GMT -5
I think the system is wise. I may be wrong when all is said and done and I will be the first to admit that I was wrong. 1) Erik is a GT and WHFB vet. I trust his judgement. 2) He says that he is going to veto WAAC armies. This is a good thing if he does it. 3) If you aren't bringing a hard army to a GT then you should. 4) If you are bringing a fluffy list then expect to lose more than you win; you will still have a good time. I have done this a couple of times. 5) This system makes you think twice about what you take. I find it funny that the guys busting Erik's balls are guys that ran a Green Knight and a Keeper of Secrets last year. Are you guys nervous that your armies may not get matched up against 1st time GT goers so that you can abuse them and pick up an easy 1st win? I am glad that you have altruistic motives. 6) The guy who goes 5-0 should win best general even if he takes Big Poppa and units of horrors and casts magic missiles the entire tournament. 7) I almost won Brawler Bash 1 with an inferior beastmen army, that actually had beast herds in it. Canterman won with Lizzies, so I think Lizzies should be banned. Perfection! Sorry guys, since no one posts on the Battle Buddies site anymore, I had to pick a fight with you guys on this forum!
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Post by method00 on Feb 24, 2011 18:55:06 GMT -5
Child Please...... I bet our Empire lists are of similar toughness. i don't have any duplicate artill for god's sake! Did you mention my bret army last years's Knight's contingent was a total of 3 units of 6 knights?(and 1 peg knight unit of 3)and the rest men at arms? keep in mind the vamps and demons were the powerhouses in 7th and both were unbreakable thus my 3 undersized units of knights had their work cut out for them.... don't tell me the addition of the green knight put that list into the uber powerful pool. (besides that list was so fair that i had the tied amount of best opponent votes as the best sportsmen, so my opp certainly didn't think the green knight was out of control/brokenville..) Truth be told you Richmond lot play Much nastier lists than anyone in southern Virginia or NC, (with the exception of Todd Wiatt and he is basically one of you guys) you being the exception of course all you lists are good. That said I will not defend the LD bomb armies ..(cough.. cough masque) those armies really are lame.. still love ya though Eoin.. No one is busting any balls, certainly not Erik's ( although he brought slannesh daemons as well..... ) What I am saying is; If we wanted to beat up newbies...in the first round (totally pwneg rawr!!) explain why anyone would suggest giving soft lists bonus points (a head start) Because every suggestion so far I have read is still keeping the army banding set up for the first 2 rounds? unless I'm not reading something right... Sure if Erik is rejecting lists then it will probably work out just fine, but I thought that this is what tourny threads are for, suggestions/criticisms/ideas for and about the events right? Is there feedback thread for people who are looking to attend, and are wondering about the rulespack?
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